From: Rich Graves <llurch@networking.stanford.edu>
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 17:38:35 +0800
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Enemies R Us [Political Rant]
In-Reply-To: <960414163840_271703650@emout08.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.ULT.3.92.960414215916.11233A-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
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[I've done my best to make this somewhat relevant, and to ignore most of
the obvious trolls.]

On Sun, 14 Apr 1996 JonWienke@aol.com responded to an anonymous troll:

> >At the same time, however, as Federal agencies proceed with
> >traditional means of intelligence gathering (as in the
> >Unabomber case), and Congress ponders a new anti-terrorism
> >bill (stalled by the gun lobby and civil libertarians),
> >efforts to fight domestic terrorism are being supplemented
> >more than ever by private human rights organizations that
> >track the fringe right with their own networks. They willingly
> >share information with law enforcement agencies, branches of
> >the military and reporters.
>
> If Federal LEO's are getting so much help from volunteer snitches, why
> do we need the anti-terrorism bull? :)

We don't. Not that the "volunteer snitches" are anywhere near as important
ans they think they are. Most LEO types will just blow them off, because
there isn't probable cause. Where the private orgs come into play is
*after* some wacko goes postal, and the government wants expert witnesses.

This raises some interesting questions about the power of private data
collection and data havens, though. There is something to be said for the
rule of law. At least the government is somewhat accountable, and will
always be "infiltrated" by professional bureaucrats who care about human
rights. Private organizations are more ideologically coherent and less
likely to open their affairs to public scrutiny.

> >Most of the human rights organizations were actively
> >campaigning against racism and anti-Semitism long before the
> >Oklahoma City bombing on April 19, 1995 and the arrest of two
> >suspects with links to militia groups. And with many of the
> >right-wing groups now hiding racist views beyond a more
> >acceptable veneer of anti-government oratory, the human rights

The more I get into this, the more backwards this sounds. As a FUCKING
STATIST, I'm a lot more comfortable with certain racists than with
anti-government zealots of any political persuasion. This assumes, of
course, that the racists lack sufficient power to put their genocidal
ideas into practice.

> >At least two of them -- the Southern Poverty Law Center in
> >Montgomery, Ala., and the Simon Wiesenthal Center in Los
> >Angeles -- use undercover operatives. Both organizations had
> >spies attend a convention last weekend in Lake Tahoe that
> >attracted hundreds of Christian Identity followers to hear a
> >speech by Randy Weaver, the white separatist whose wife and
> >son were killed three years ago in a siege by Federal agents
> >in Ruby Ridge.

"Undercover operatives" is much too maudlin. I went under my own name,
said hello to a few folks. Weaver is a fucking lunatic, but the skiing
was good.

> >Since the Oklahoma City tragedy, numerous "Patriot" terrorist
> >plots have been discovered, including plans to poison federal
> >employees in Minnesota and conspiracies to blow up a federal
> >courthouse in Spokane and an IRS building in Reno. An AmTrak
> >train was derailed by a group calling itself "Sons of the
> >Gestapo."
>
> Which turned out to have been done by a disgruntled former railroad employee
> who left the "sons of gestapo" note as a red herring.  Could you at least
> stick to propaganda that has at least some basis in fact?

This is news to me. What's your source for this?

> Explosives thefts are nothing new.  Regulation of explosive materials is.
>  Explosives and poisons can be made out of commonly available materials.  If
> this is such a problem, how come this country wasn't bombed and poisoned into
> oblivion 50 years ago?

50 years ago, American citizens of Japanese descent were just being let
out of "internment camps," and the State of Mississippi was keeping files
on 87,000 "political subversives" -- never mind the FBI. I'm not a big fan
of the bad, old days.

30 and 76 years ago, many parts were bombed. Berkeley. Ronald Reagan.
Sacco & Vanzetti. Eugene Debs. Attorney General A. Mitchell Palmer. Forget
everything you've ever been told about "right" and "left"; it's the same
people, really, fighting for the same things, mostly.

> >+ Learn about the "Patriot" movement and share your knowledge
> >with others
>
> Absolutely, yes, hallelujah, preach it brother!  You might want to chesk out
> other sources than the SPLC, however.  The best way to find out what views an
> organization holds is to directly contact the organization, rather than a
> member of the opposition with an axe to grind.

You're joking, right?

To learn what the Church of Scientology is really about, see
http://www.theta.com/

To learn what Watergate was really about, visit the Nixon Presidential
Library.

To learn what the IRA is really about, talk to Gerry Adams.

To learn what the Cuban Revolution is really about, talk to Castro or your
local "Pastors for Peace" propagandist.

No, the only way to learn about an organization is to JOIN IT. You should
see the mail I'm getting now.

> I find it disgusting that a radical left-wing propaganda outlet like the
> SPLC can legally call itself a "charity."

Don't worry, Newt is working on it.

- -rich
 http://www.c2.org/~rich/

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