From: Steve Reid <steve@edmweb.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 09:17:36 +0800
To: jim bell <jimbell@pacifier.com>
Subject: [getting noisy] Re: 5th protect password?
In-Reply-To: <m0uB2v1-00090gC@pacifier.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.960421134036.8631B@kirk.edmweb.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


> >I think you missed the main pattern... When a suspect is required to
> >provide fingerprints, voice, blood and/or handwriting samples, those
> >things are used exclusively for _identification_.
> >The only exceptions I can think of are when blood, breath and urine
> >samples are taken from a suspect to detect certain chemicials in the body. 
> >But, AFAIK, those exceptions are entirely the product of the recent war on
> >drugs. 

> This is odd.  By mentioning those exceptions you just destroyed your 
> argument.  If you were trying to claim that "identification"-intended 
> evidence was not protected by the 5th amendment, mentioning samples taken to 
> detect drugs are obviously not of this type.  The implication is that they 
[SNIP]
> This, as you might expect, is getting hilarious.  Somehow, I think 
> everything that might be construed as a violation of the 5th is going to be 
> called "a special case" or "an exception" by those who see no problem, or at 
> least those who are not willing to admit to a problem. 

No need to be so defensive, Mr. Bell... I didn't say that samples used to
detect drugs are OK under the constitution. I just said that, IMNALO,
samples taken for identification have always been okay. The samples taken
to detect unauthorized molecules are the exception to the identification
rule I noted. I do agree that requiring people to provide such samples to
detect illegal substances (as I said, a recent development) is wrong. 

I wasn't trying to score points for either side of the debate, I was just
pointing out that _before_the_war_on_drugs_, the samples listed in the
previous post were used exclusively for identification.

Handwriting, fingerprints, and voice (not to mention name and appearance)
are still used exclusively for idenitification. Breath and urine (items
that I added when I mentioned the war on drugs) are used exclusively for
detecting chemicals (although I think DNA can be found in urine). 

Just my two bits. That's all I'm willing to spend on this discussion. 
Only time will tell whether or not the courts will force people to provide
encryption keys. 


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