From: Victor Boyko <vboykod@eldorado.stern.nyu.edu>
Date: Sat, 4 May 1996 13:04:42 +0800
To: dan@dpcsys.com
Subject: Re: The Joy of Java
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SV4.3.91.960427003947.6962C-100000@cedb>
Message-ID: <9605031933.AA24575@eldorado.stern.nyu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


>>>>> "Dan" == Dan Busarow <dan@dpcsys.com> writes:

    Dan> At Usenix 96 in San Diego it was pointed out that applets are
    Dan> an abberation. This is a complete language designed to
    Dan> displace C++, Visual Basic and other OO languages. Thinking
    Dan> of Java as simpy a Web enhancement tool is short sighted.

    Dan> Personally it is more attractive than C++ for product
    Dan> development and we are trying to get it on FreeBSD, SCO
    Dan> UnixWare and SCO OSR5. Using Java for applets _only_ is like
    Dan> @#$% your mother... Most of us are not into it.

I have been doing work in Java for the past half a year or so (most
recent project: implementing SSL 3.0). I can't say I don't like it at
all, but I like C++ much more. Here are my thoughts about the issue.
Since there is a subjective component to choosing a programming
language, flamewars are very likely to erupt when you say "Language A
is much better than Language B", but it may still be interesting to
read others' opinions.

As I see it, Java as a language is basically (C++) + (garbage
collection) - (templates) - (operator overloading) - (multiple
inheritance) - ... Garbage collection is a very useful thing in many
cases (though in some it may be a great slowdown), but there is no
real reason not to incorporate GC into a C++ implementation, or at
least give the user an option of doing it.

On the other hand, templates are an extremely useful feature, since
they allow huge amounts of code reuse (Wei Dai's crypto++ library is
a great example of the use of templates). They also enable a C++
programmer to do such things as run-time array boundary checking
(refuting one of the traditional arguments about the dangers of C++),
or a type which is a subrange of another. Java programs can have some
template-like functionality through the use of the Object class, but
that is very limited. For instance, compare the following hypothetical
Java code

	List l;
	l.append(new Integer(1));
	l.append(new Integer(2));
	int x = ((Integer)(l.head())).intValue();

with this C++

	List<int> l;
	l.append(1);
	l.append(2);
	int x = l.head();

The second version is clearly more readable. It would also be more
efficient since no run-time conversions would be done.

There are also situations in which templates would work, but Objects
would not. For instance, it is very easy in C++ to make a template
class Range<type, min, max> that would be a subrange [min, max] of
type, and would do run-time checks for any assignments. There is no
way you can do this in Java.

Java also lacks operator overloading. 'V = M*W + A' (where V, W, and A
are vectors, and M is a matrix) is much easier to read than 'V =
Vector.add(Matrix.multiply(M, W), A)'. The same would apply to a big
integer class. 

The lack of multiple inheritance is somewhat alleviated with the use
of interfaces, but there are cases where this is not enough. The
crypto++ library uses a lot of nontrivial multiple inheritance.

Another strange deficiency of Java is that there is only one way to
pass parameters. All class parameters are passed by reference, while
all primitive-type parameters are passed by value. What if you need to
pass an integer by reference? Also, when you pass a class parameter,
the method can modify it arbitrarily, since Java does not allow
constant variables.

As for the usual complaint "C++ has pointers which are unsafe!!!", the
following can be said. First, Java has pointers too: all class objects
are actually pointers to data, so, for instance, "A = B" in Java would
mean "Make A a pointer to the same location as B", not the traditional
meaning "Make A a copy of B". Second, when it is said that C++
pointers are unsafe, usually two things are meant: C++ allows you to
cast a pointer of one type to a pointer of another type, and C++
allows for pointer arithmetic. Both of these features are not needed
in virtually all programs (they were probably retained only for C
compatibility), except those that interface with the low-level system
calls. Also, both of them can only be invoked explicitly. Thus, the
programmer which uses them has only himself to blame if anything goes
wrong.

In summary, I don't see Java as the new great language that is going
to replace C++ in the standalone application arena, even if Java ran
as fast as C++. It is true that Java has a nice standard library
(including threads), but there is no reason whatsoever why a library
with a very similar interface could not be written in C++.

On the other hand, considering Java as a language specifically for
applets is a completely different matter. Here it does not compete
with C++. The competitors -- Safe-Perl, Python, and Safe-TCL (and
perhaps some Scheme-like languages) -- don't stand a chance without
being supported by Netscape.

Thus I would say that Java became so popular for the following
reasons:

- It was developed by Sun.
- It was licensed by Netscape.
- It is C++ -like.
- JDK (and its source) were made freely available.

Constructive comments and discussion of this issue would be
appreciated, but send the flames to /dev/null.

Sincerely,
Victor Boyko

-- 
Victor Boyko <vboykod@is-2.nyu.edu>
http://galt.cs.nyu.edu/students/vb1890/
To get my PGP key, finger or send e-mail with subject "send pgp key".