From: attila <attila@primenet.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 16:13:48 +0800
To: tcmay@got.net (Timothy C. May)
Subject: Re: Workers Paradise. /Political rant.
In-Reply-To: <ae61f6ec05021004f2e5@[207.167.93.63]>
Message-ID: <199609160537.XAA22337@InfoWest.COM>
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In <ae61f6ec05021004f2e5@[207.167.93.63]>, on 09/15/96 
   at 11:17 AM, tcmay@got.net (Timothy C. May) said:

= .At 11:43 PM 9/15/96, attila wrote:

= .>            NO, it does not need to be or do either, BUT, it means
= .>            that everybody independently attempts to succeed and
= .>            the 'community' takes care of itself --and in the
= .>            standardsense, the ne'er do wells fall off the path
= .>            of *their own free choice.*  There will always be
= .>            sickness and calamity, but that is what the community
= .>            is for.
= .>
= .>            BTW, it still works today; I live in one of 'em.

= .And lest there be any doubt, I _do_ support certain kinds of
= .charities, and will not of course stop anyone from practicing
= .charity. While I have no religious beliefs to speak of, 

        OK, Tim, we're patient...  we do not convert, we accept
    among the Saints only those who have received their own
    testimony.

        each must be free to pray as they believe.

= .I strongly
= .support the mechanisms some churches have for taking care of their
= .own members, recruits from the street, etc. 

        our members are our community. we believe in
    self-determination and that each must achieve is own greatness.
    we also believe in the support of the community, one and all. we
    do not file for government welfare.

= .(Including Salvation
= .Army and "mission" sorts of inner city things--note of course that
= .most such entities also insist on prayer and/or Bible readings as
= .part of the deal...

        well, we pray before our meals; we just ask that you respect
    our preference to pray.  we do not ask you to listen; if you
    listen, that is for your benefit; 

        The Salvation Army does make the men/women suffer through a
    short lesson and prayer.  maybe just one will listen one day;
    that is their reward.  The Salvation Army is just that: a
    dedicated army for the fallen.  Their "commanders" live in the
    same general quarters.

= .I wonder how long it will be before a class
= .action lawsuit is filed to stop the prayer part? This would
= .effectively shut the missions down, of course.)

        I doubt it would shut the Salvation Army down; that is a
    life long commitment and saving souls may be a mission, but not
    the raison d'etre of their existence.  

        The rest of them, I suspect the loss of 'mission' might be a
    death knell.

= .The thing about _traditional_ charity, of the religious or
= .community sort, was that it was not treated as an "entitlement," as
= .something the resentful masses could "demand" as part of their
= ."human rights." 

        THAT is the difference.  not until FDR was there an
    entitlement.
 
= .A parish priest, for example, might extend charity
= .to a poor person, or a widow, or whatever, but not to an
= .able-bodied person who simply decided to not work. 
= .
        that was the 'poor box' at the front of the sanctuary; the
    stories of the widow's mite (that and the teachings of Christ
    receiving the widow's mite).

= .Nor to an
= .unmarried woman who kept getting pregnant and having more mouths to
= .feed.

        well, stoning has not gone out of vogue in the muslim
    countries.
 
= .(I surmise that most such women either died of diseases related to
= .sexual promiscuity, died in childbirth, died of disease brought on
= .by malnutrition, or ended up in convents (Catholic birth control).)

        slave labour comes to mind...

= .The point is that even in an "age of charity," strings have to be
= .attached by the givers of charity. People will simply not give
= .40-60% of what they earn to support a growing population of people
= .who say it's their "right" to welfare, AFDC (Aid to Families with
= .Dependent Children), WIC (Women, Infants, and Children), food
= .stamps (*), and suchlike.
= .
        well, so far we are, by extortion, in what is labeled as the
    "worlds largest voluntary tax system"

        the problem is that the "entitlemented" are allowed to vote,
    and they outnumber us.  but heaven forbid that the liberal media
    should permit us to disenfranchise or decimate their cadres.

= .(At certain supermarkets I sometimes shop in on the way back to my
= .town, people in front of me in line put their nice cuts of meat
= .down, their fine loaves of bread, their frozen dinner entrees,
= .their "Ben and Jerry's Ice Cream," and then pay for it with books
= .of blue "Department of Agriculture" food stamps. 
=.
        I made a sarcastic comment some month's ago to a companion 
    as we viewed such a scene in a large supermarket (I sing bass or
    contrabass, and it carries).  

        the ensuing ruckus degenerated to a small group of the
    incensed illegals warily looking at the man in black, black
    assassins lid, mirrored aviators....  
        
        intimidation is just another form of communication...  

= .They use their own
= .cash (perhaps gotten by cashing their welfare and "disability"
= .checks) to buy their smokes and booze, as food stamps are not
= .allowed to be spent on this stuff. My impression is that they eat
= .more expensive food than I do, 

        they do, Tim, they do. --and more of it; the fruits of your
    labour!

= .perhaps because they're buying the
= .food with "play money," whereas I'm buying my food with money
= .that's what's left after I had to pay 40-50 taxes, so I seek to
= .economize when I can!)

        they can't add a checkbook or read to pass a driver's
    license, but they can count entitlement money.

        that's all right; after the Federal law killing the require-
    ment for alternative languages, you speak and write English
    to get a driver's license in Utah, or anything else. learn or 
    burn.

= .>            Now, I don't intend to be Scrooge, but I'll fight for
= .>            my rights to cut off at the knees the knee-jerk
= .>            liberals and government slavemeisters who want to tell
= .>            me that I, and 2 others are required to support 100
= .>            freeloaders.

= .And speaking of Scrooge, I like "A Christmas Carol" about as much
= .as anyone I know, and try to take the lesson of what Scrooge
= .learned as a general lesson about life and living it.

        In Dickensonian (I guess it works) England, the employer was
    ethically charged with the care of his employees. Of course,
    this all fits into my concept: 

            "in general, men are basically good 
                --unless it involves money."  

        Unfortunately, very few monied industrialists were
    charitable, and this fact gave FDR the opportunity to start the
    interminable dole, generation after generation of welfare
    _entitlements_.  

        the lazy, the pregnant teenagers on their third child, &c.
    believe they are _entitled_ to pick my pocket, and your pocket.

        at this point < 20% of the population is supporting > 80%
    who are _entitled_ to my support because some bleeding heart
    knee jerk says so.  the federal budget defines these programs as 
    _entitlements_ --they have even dropped the pretense of calling 
    it "aid" or "welfare."  It is a separate budget class by itself
    and does not figure in the stated deficit. and the slimeball 
    Clinton brought in for the Treasury, he already replaced the 
    entitlement funds with a government IOU...

        Scrooge needed to receive the revelation of charity --and to
    accept the principle.  He did.  Charity is not a Christian
    concept; it is fundamental human characteristic present to some
    extent in most humans, and differentiates us from say the ants,
    who cannibalize their fallen comrads.

        I know many good, charitable individuals who are not
    religious, even agnostics.  

        I've always discounted atheism as a conundrum; you can not
    deny before you first identify.

= .(As with "Robin Hood," the message is often confused. Robin Hood
= .was not "stealing from the rich," he was taking back what was
= .stolen from the peasants and farmers by the King and his tax
= .collectors, notably the Sheriff of Notingham. At least this is how
= .I read the myth.)

        you bet!  the Sheriff of Nottingham was _greedy_ and 
    merciless. Robin Hood was only returning the property to the 
    rightful owners  --a lesson missed by most.

        the real question: just how much of a myth is it?  the moral
    would not have been stated and the peasants would not have 
    protected the "merry band" had they been plunderers of the land.

= .--Tim May

        Oh, yes, I forgot to add a special message to "Dr. Dimitri" on
    his Piled higher [and] Deeper throne of cow feces, don't forget
    to address me as "Dr. Attila" 'cause I got a couple of them
    things, too.  

        and if Tim is an old fart, what am I?  I've got at least
    5-10 years on Tim.  --doesn't keep my hand off the cranked
    throttle of my 102 cu in outlaw chopper.

        --attila

--
one of the few things we all share: 
  the utter, corrosive contempt for our elected officials.