From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 23:15:35 +0800
To: harka@nycmetro.com
Subject: Re: poverty traps (Re: Sa
In-Reply-To: <199710252037.PAA30248@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <199710261509.KAA01240@users.invweb.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



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In <199710252037.PAA30248@einstein.ssz.com>, on 10/25/97 
   at 04:09 PM, harka@nycmetro.com said:

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> > Harka <harka@nycmetro.com> wrote:

> > That may indeed work for some people, but the argument of
> > "self-discipline and sacrifice" usually goes overboard once
> > people _other than yourself_ are severely affected by that.
> > "Sorry hun, you can't have a new winter-coat. Mommy has to save
> > enough money so that she can choose the people she works for.
> > And no...no christmas this year either".

> -=> Quoting In:aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk to Harka <=-

> In> That is indeed a sad financial state to be in.  I have trouble
> In> believing it though.

>[examples of well-fares deleted]

> In> So if any kids are being deprived of winter clothes or
> In> whatever, it's not because their parents don't have enough
> In> money, it's because their parents are stupid, or selfish.

>Although my statement was deliberately somewhat exaggerated, it is not
>that far from reality for quite a few people I know.

>A real-life example:

>A single (divorced) mother, 4 kids (3-12 years), working full-time and
>making in theory $42 000/year. After taxes that comes down to $2000 cash
>per month.

CLUE #1: The reason she is divorced with 4 kids is because she made the
CHOICES in life that put her there!

>In order for her to be able to work her two youngest kids go to a
>day-care-center. Wham! $1000 per month (hiring a baby-sitter would amount
>to even more).
>Her apartment costs $800/month excluding utilities. That leaves $200 (+
>$800 she gets in child-support) per month for _five_ people to live on
>(clothes, food, utilities, school-books, gas for the car, etc.etc.)

>One thousand dollars per month for five people!! And that in New York
>City!

CLUE #2: If she can't afford to live in New York City then MOVE!!

>She is not entitled to any support such as free school-meals for the kids
>etc., because she "makes too much money" (_before_ taxes, of course!)

CLUE #3: She is not "entitled" to anything regardless of what she makes.

>What efforts has she made to make "herself more marketable"? She has been
>working ever since the age of 16, went 8 years to College (paid by
>herself and paying rent at the same time) and now has a Masters Degree in
>teaching.

CLUE #4: She made a bad choice of getting a Masters Degree in teaching.
She just as well could have spent the 8 yrs becoming a lawer. She made the
CHOICE to become a teacher, that's here problem not ours.

>What has it brought her? Bill-collectors calling every day!

CLUE #5: She is living above her means. Move to a cheaper apartment, get a
better paying job in Industry, spend less on "luxury items", ...ect

>She made a calculation and (confirming your statement) came to the
>conclusion, that she indeed would have _more_ money by not working at all
>and simply going on welfare.

>However, that is not a choice she wants to make.

>Is she to be called "stupid" and "selfish" because she's poor despite her
>efforts???

CLUE #6: She has made CHOICES in her life that has brought her to where
she is today. Now she needs to make another choice of wether she want's to
stay there or improve he lot in life. It is up to her to do so, not her
boss, not the school she works for, and not the government.

>I don't think so. She, btw., is not the only person I know
>struggeling in this manner from one month into the next, barely being
>able to even catch up on bills.

And if you bother to look at how and why they are there you would see that
it is of their own making.

>Neither does she have a free choice of employers. There is only one board
>of education in the City. Changing for a private school would come with
>(at least a temporary) pay-cut, that she obviously can't afford.

Of course she has free choice of employers. She just has to be willing to
make them.

>Therefore:

>Since she isn't the only person I can think of, who is in such a
>position, the argument formerly known as "If 'ya don't like the
>company-policy [employing GAK/CAK] just leave and work for somebody else"
>may now be called: "Ad Acta".

Therefore:

This is yet another case of one being unwilling of taking the
RESPONSIBILITY for their actions. She put herself there and she is the
only one who can get herself out.

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