From: Joichi Ito <jito@eccosys.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 07:49:43 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: Exporting crypto from Japan
In-Reply-To: <199711161635.BAA06329@eccosys.com>
Message-ID: <199711162343.IAA12079@eccosys.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



At 09:26 97/11/16 -0700, Tim May wrote:
> At 9:35 AM -0700 11/16/97, Joichi Ito wrote:
> >At 09:02 97/11/14 -0700, Tim May wrote:

> And, almost immediately, the Japanese RSA chip became "unavailable." A
> longterm Cypherpunk, who can speak up if he desires to, had a few of these
> chips in the U.S. before the NSA ordered Chobetsu/MITI to halt export (and
> probably even to halt internal use in products developed for export). He
> told me the chips had suddenly become "unavailable," with no apparent
> prospects for them _ever_ becoming available. The stooges in Nippon listen
> when their masters speak.

It was for this longterm Cypherpunk that I looked into the RSA export
issue and gave them the recommendation. It is likely that some pressure
from the US government is being put on Japanese ministries such as MITI,
but there are certain government agencies that aren't as exposed to US
pressure
who also have domestic political strength. Also, I looked into the "Chobetsu"
that you refered to in a previous message and I think you are refering to the
"Naikaku Chosashitsu Betsushitsu" which is the group that engages in the often
rather shady "super-legal" actions like stamping out political parties and
going after cults. I don't think they have any direct involvement in the
current
RSA issue and I wouldn't call them "Japan's NSA." They are more like some
kind of secret police. (I can already image the kind of messages I'm going to
receive on this list for engaging with you at this level of dialog, but for
the
benefit of some of the lurkers, I think it's worth it...) My point is, you
are probably
right that there is some activity by groups like the NSA putting pressure on
exposed parts of Japanese government to stifle export of crypto. But... the
current Japanese government is not as organized as you might think and
there are many different groups with different opinions. I don't think it is
necessary to write off all Japanese as stooges. Also, I disagree that there
is "no apparent prospects for them _ever_ becoming available." This is not
true. There is quite a bit a dialog going on in Japan about US pressure on
Japan, US "information imperialism" and about those groups within Japan
who are listen to the US. Some of the Japanese who have been speaking up
against US policy have begun being labeled as "right-wing nationalists".
(Which is probably better protection in Japan than being called a "left-wing
liberal.") In any case, there is a fight going on inside Japan which isn't
just
a show. So much of what you are saying is true in a general sense, but there
are still a lot of unresolved issues in Japan worth fighting for if anyone
is interested in looking into the detail. I personally think that the
impact of
Japan's actions is great enough so that it might be worth engaging rather
than just writing us off.

> >to regulate or restrict an activity without a clear and easy to understand
> >process and documentation. MITI's current method of "case-by-case"
> >export permission could technically be viewed as a breach of this
> >law/regulation. Also, the "Gyousei Tetsuzuki Hou" has time limits
> >for ministries to respond to requests. I have informed RSA that they
> >could take MITI to court on this one, but as far as I know, they haven't.
> >So, yes, Japanese stooges were involved, but companies such as RSA
> >haven't taken advantage of their legal position in pushing the export
> >of their products from Japan.
> 
> RSA the company may have various reasons for not pushing the issue too
> hard. For one thing, pissing off the NSA (even more) may cut into business
> contracts. For another, designing the Japanese chip into products could be
> a dangerous thing, if the supply is uncertain (and winning one court battle
> in Japan may not ensure continued supplies). Finally, recall that I
> publically described threats by NSA agents to have Bidzos "run over in your
> parking lot."

Well, I can understand that Mr. Bidzos doesn't want to get run over in
the parking lot, but don't you think strong crypto for the world is more
important? Why doesn't he buy a gun and sue MITI. ;-P

- Joi

P.S. I can already see this message going down in a flurry a flames.
Although I'm getting used to ignoring irrelevant messages and taking
cheap shots at Tim when I have the chance, I'm still not sure if the risk
of engaging in dialog "out in the open" is worth the net reputation
capital earned after all of the mud is slung. Also, I'm not sure whether
giving away all of my tactics just to win an arguement is worth it.
Maybe it is better to save those rounds for the real fight. My point is,
if people on this list are really going to do anything about crypto
I'll continue to weather the attacks and engage in dialog with you.
If the point of this list is to just beat each other up and talk about how
bad it all is, then I'm going to give up.

--
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