From: "Stephen Boursy" <rent_control@msn.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 05:58:04 -0800 (PST)
To: "aga" <freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Subject: RE: Censor John Gilmore -- EFF is a disgrace!
Message-ID: <UPMAIL07.199611151356330254@msn.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




----------
From:  aga
Sent:  Thursday, November 14, 1996 8:30 AM
To:  freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
Cc:  Dave Hayes; InterNet Freedom Council; Declan McCullagh; 
cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject:  Censor John Gilmore -- EFF is a disgrace!

On Wed, 13 Nov 1996, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 13:12:50 -0800 (PST)
> From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
> Reply-To: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org
> To: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org>
> Cc: freedom-knights@jetcafe.org, cypherpunks@toad.com
> Subject: Re: [REBUTTAL] Censorship on cypherpunks?, from The Netly News 
> 
> I am amused. I gave Dave Hayes about an 8.5 out of 10 on the scale of
> meaningless political rants.
> 

Jealousy rears it's ugly head.  You just wish you had the credibility
that Dave Hayes has.

Declan has no credibility but quite honestly it doesn't seem to
be worth much effort on the Freedom Knight list to debate
the censorous fool.  Let's keep our energies in that regard
to the public forum where exposure to this type of nonsense
will do the most good.


> * "Political safety?" I stand by my record as a writer. Check out
> http://www.eff.org/pub/Publications/Declan_McCullagh/ for some of my
> recent articles. Political safety? Hardly.
> 

This Declan_McCullagh is a long-time cabal.member, so his critique
of a Freedom-Knight like Dave Hayes is to be given short shrift.


And again-he's not worth the effort debating privately.  As far as
the mailing list goes I'm sure we can get forwards from some kind
soul and just post the whole thing publically on usenet for
free and open discussion.


> * Dave says "Notice that the net is compared to a home or private club." 
> Wrong. I never compared the Net to such. However, a mailing list run on a
> computer in someone's home with his own cash is very similar to a private
> club.  There are private speech restrictions on the Net. Gated communities
> exist.  Try to join the "lawprofs" mailing list. You can't; you're not
> (and quite obviously anything but) a law professor. Censorship? Not quite. 
> 

None of that analogy is applicable to the cyberpunks list.
When a list gets as big as that, it it no longer to be considered
a "mailing-list" but it is a _public_ forum.  The whole problem
here is the abuse of power by both the EFF and John Gilmore.


  Well then let's put their precious censored mailing list in 
the public domain.


> * Contrary to what you seem to be asserting, Gilmore hasn't blocked Vulis
> from posting. 
> 
> * Dave warns us to consider "what would happen if one parent company owned
> *all* communications media." Then we have problems. I've written about
> this in an Internet Underground magazine column. However, this is not the
> case now. Or are you arguing the government should get involved and force
> Gilmore to allow Vulis on his list?
> 

No, he is saying that people can use an e-mail filter and not listen
to Vulis if they want to.  It was a very simple thing; are you too
uneducated to know how to use an e-mail filter?


  Any idiot can use an email filter-he knows that.  Again-on our
mailing list he's not worth the effort-let's take the subject and 
their mailing list to usenet.

                                       Steve

> By the way, if you haven't figured it out yet, Mr. "Freedom Knight of
> Usenet,"  a private mailing list is NOT Usenet. Get a clue. 
> 

Wrong!  The cyberpunks mailing list is PUBLIC property and should
NOT be controlled by John Gilmore!  This just goes to show the real
facist censorship motives that the EFF has behind it.

Time to kill the EFF, and let it rot in hell.  They are disgrace
to the entire InterNet community.  I run 6 different mailing lists,
and have NEVER puled the plug on anyone, even when they criticize me.

The first time is the time when you lose all credibility, and there
is never any forgiveness for a plug-puller.


> -Declan
> 

-aga.admin
InterNet Freedom Council
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, 13 Nov 1996, Dave Hayes wrote:
> 
> > [This is a rebuttal to a misguided news article.]
> > 
> > > Cypher-Censored
> > > By Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)
> > 
> > Thank you for leaving your email address. It makes this easier.
> > 
> > You people (read: the unaware and hypnotized masses, which includes
> > reporters who's desire for attention and political safety holds them
> > in line with the consensual illusion) keep missing the real issue, and
> > substituting issues which only hold themselves in place.
> > 
> > [Those of you who know, please excuse the mediaistic terms used in
> > this rebuttal. One must use the symbols one is given to communicate
> > at the level of understanding of those who use them.]
> > 
> > >        Thus began a debate over what the concept of censorship means in 
a
> > >    forum devoted to opposing it. Did Gilmore have the right to show 
Vulis
> > >    the virtual door? Or should he have let the ad hominem attacks
> > >    continue, encouraging people to set their filters accordingly? The
> > >    incident raises deeper questions about how a virtual community can
> > >    prevent one person from ruining the forum for all and whether only
> > >    government controls on expression can be called "censorship."
> > 
> > "Cyberspace" is interacted with using tools under the control of the
> > interactor. 
> > 

yes, and all you need is a simple mail filter.

> > In person-to-person interaction, one's only real defense against what
> > one decides to call "unwanted" is to remove oneself from the arena of
> > interaction. It may not be possible to ignore or run away from certain
> > sources of input. 
> > 
> > In cyberspace, however, it is not only possible but necessary and even
> > desirable. Cyberspace allows one to interact with many more people
> > then can fit in any given physical space. One simply -cannot- receive
> > input from 2000 people and not employ some sort of filtering
> > mechanism. Indeed, cyberspace has many buttons and switches (and even
> > programmatic filters) which allow one to -completely- control whom one
> > interacts with.
> > 
> > Logically, we must conclude that those who frequently and repeatedly
> > cry for the censorship or removal of any source of input from
> > cyberspace are either:
> > 
> > 	-quite clueless about the tools at their disposal
> > 	-ideologically or personally opposed to the source of input
> > or	-in need of large amounts of attention from others
> > 
> > Cluelessness can be overcome by appropriate teaching and interest in
> > learning (the latter issue we can safely assume users of popular but
> > ineffectual windowing OSes are not able to overcome). Such
> > cluelessness, however, is not and should never be a reason for 
> > censorship.
> > 
> > A need for attention can be overcome by refraining from the denial
> > that the need exists, followed by careful observation of that need. 
> > More can be said on this, but this is not the forum. Such a need
> > is not and should never be a reason for censorship. 
> > 
> > Idelological opposition is another matter entirely. To understand this
> > better, we'll need to observe this in action. Here is an example:
> > 
> > >        Vulis portrays himself as a victim, but as I posted to the list
> > >    last week, I disagree. Anyone who's spent any time on the
> > >    100-plus-messages-a-day list can read for themselves the kind of 
nasty
> > >    daily messages that came from Vulis's keyboard. 
> > 
> > "Nasty" is, of course, by this reporter's standard of "nasty". Granted
> > this standard may in fact be shared by Mr. Gilmore, however a shared
> > standard is not necessarily an appropriate or correct standard. 
> > 
> > >    The list is on Gilmore's machine and he can do what he wants with
> > >    it; he can moderate the postings, he can censor material, he can
> > >    shut the whole thing down. By kicking off an offending user, a
> > >    list owner merely exercises his property right. There's no
> > >    government involvement, so the First Amendment doesn't apply. And
> > >    the deleted, disgruntled user is free to start his own mailing
> > >    list with different rules.
> > 
> > Notice how, once the opposition is admitted to, the rationalization
> > begins. Suddenly this is not a matter of censorship, but of ownership.
> > Just as suddenly, the classic anti-free-speech arguments of "if you
> > don't like it, start yer own" begin to surface. (Anyone ever notice
> > how this resembles the "love it or leave it" mentality of certain
> > American patriotic organizations?)
> > 
> > What would ideological opposition be without the attempt at analogy? 
> > Here we witness another example:
> > 
> > >        But then the question is whether Gilmore should have exercised
> > >    that right, especially in such an open forum. Again, I think 
Gilmore's
> > >    actions were justified. Consider inviting someone into your home or
> > >    private club. If your guest is a boor, you might ask him to leave. If
> > >    your guest is an slobbish drunk of a boor, you have a responsibility
> > >    to require him to leave before he ruins the evening of others.
> > 
> > Notice that the net is compared to a home or private club. Actually
> > the net is neither, however that would not serve the purposes of this
> > analogy, so this fact is convienently forgotton. 
> > 
> > The net is a wonderful place. Any ideology, no matter who disagrees or
> > agrees with it, can be expressed and discussed here...assuming those
> > who oppose this ideology do not have their way with the source of
> > expression. There is a more refined and deeper truth to be found
> > in the very existence of the set of all human ideologies, which is
> > just beginning to show itself to some netizens. Unfortunately, this
> > truth can be ruined when people equate some notion of value to 
> > sources which ignore all but a tiny subset of the set of all ideologies:
> > 
> > >        Eugene Volokh, a law professor at UCLA, runs a number of mailing
> > >    lists and has kicked people off to maintain better editorial control.
> > >    Volokh says that the most valuable publications are those that
> > >    exercise the highest degree of editorial control.
> > 
> > Value to whom and for what? If the editorial control produces one
> > small element of the set of all ideologies, then this is only of value
> > to the people who support this ideology. Given that the set of 
> > people who support an issue is smaller than the set of people
> > who support and oppose an issue, would the value not increase
> > by allowing both sides of an issue equal speaking time? 
> > 
> > >        For his part, Gilmore calls removing the Russian mathematician 
"an
> > >    act of leadership." He says: "It said we've all been putting up with
> > >    this guy and it's time to stop. You're not welcome here... It seemed
> > >    to me that a lot of the posts on cypherpunks were missing the mark.
> > >    They seemed to have an idea that their ability to speak through my
> > >    machine was guaranteed by the Constitution."
> > 
> > It is sad to note that this is the leader of one of America's
> > forerunning organizations of freedom who says these words. For all
> > *his* ideology of free speech, this statement reveals the hypocrasy he
> > lives with for all to see. The true litmus test of free speech is to
> > encounter speech that you *want* to censor.
> > 
> > Mr. Gilmore, and other like minded parties, might want to consider
> > what would happen if one parent company owned *all* communications
> > media. Would they they be so supportive of the ideology of ownership
> > and communciation they espouse?

Indeed.  The EFF is a disgrace to the entire InterNet.
The EFF is definitely a censorship organization, and
it should never be trusted again.

> > ------
> > Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org 
> > Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet
> > 
> > Truth (n.) - the most deadly weapon ever discovered by humanity. Capable 
> > of destroying entire perceptual sets, cultures, and realities. Outlawed 
> > by all governments everywhere. Possession is normally punishable by death.
> > 
> > 
>