From: "S. M. Halloran" <mitch@duzen.com.tr>
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 13:53:26 +0800
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Subject: Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or cryp
In-Reply-To: <Mutt.19971001191622.alexlh@sarah.yc>
Message-ID: <199710020531.HAA22918@ankara.duzen.com.tr>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



William H. Geiger III <whgiii@invweb.net> wrote on  1 Oct 97:
..PGP sig data of WHG deleted...
> In <Mutt.19971001191622.alexlh@sarah.yc>, on 10/01/97 
>    at 07, alexlh@yourchoice.nl (Alex Le Heux) said:
> 
> >In article <34302d8d.8163438@newshost.cyberramp.net> you wrote:
> 
> >[lots of ranting deleted]
> 
> >: Banning guns because criminals might use them equates to banning
> >: encryption because criminals might use it.  And if you really believe
> >: that both should be banned, then perhaps you should be banned from
> >: using oxygen, because criminals breath it too.
> 
> >You people just don't get it do you? A gun has one purpose: To kill. Just
> >like any other tool, a gun, if it is available _will_ be used at some
> >point.
> 
> >So making sure there are lots of guns around only serves to make a lot of
> >people very dead. This is a Bad Thing.
> 
> >Gun control laws are not the issue. It's a matter of mentality. In
> >Europe, where we have rather strict guncontrol laws, and have had them
> >for a long time a decent human being will not even think of shooting
> >someone else. In the US, where guns are tradition and part of the
> >American way, many people would not think twice before shooting someone.
> >The result of this is that the number of people getting killed by guns is
> >enourmous, be they criminals, little kids, old grannies, or presidents.
> 
> >This sucks.
> 
> >We are not trying to export our stupidity, we're just trying to explain
> >to you how we live. We live in a place where we don't even have to think
> >about getting a gun, because the chances of us encountering a gun in the
> >hands of an adversary are negligible.
> 
> >Wake up and smell the coffee, dude. If you have lots of guns around,
> >you're gonna end up with lots of people getting shot.
> 
> What a crock of shit!!
> 
> Europe has been in a perpetual state of war for the past 2,000 years
> where countless tens of millions of people have been slaughtered.
> Chances are very high that you will face an advisatory with a gun,
> the fact that he collects a paycheck from a government wont make you
> any less dead from his bullets.
> 

This Californian now living abroad hears a great deal about what a 
violent place America is largely because we have the right to bear 
arms.  Of course, I remind these cretins that no other place on the 
world has a greater degree and respect for civil rights than 
does America.  Amazing when you consider that America is also the 
ultimate melting pot too.  Sure a lot of ethnic and racial tension 
still exists in America, but let's tour Europe:

1) Northern Ireland, where you have two groups who speak the same 
language and basically are cut from the same cultural cloth but 
religions differ

2) The Bosnia region:  different languages and religions, possibly 
different cultures although the years under Tito must have forced 
the people represented here (the Catholic Croats, the Eastern 
Orthodox Serbs, and the Muslims) to understand a little of each 
other's culture

3) Cyprus:  different languages and religions for sure, but Greeks 
and Turks are really brothers and sisters under the skin (i.e., are 
more alike than they care to admit to)

Look at the savagery and genocidal activities of the groups involved 
in those conflicts now and historically.

The kind of ethnic/subcultural strife and difficulties in America  
pales in comparison to the kind of savage killing and cold-blooded 
enmity that these "Europeans" have for one another.  That'll be the 
day when any European gives me a sanctimonius lecture about civil and 
human rights as they oughta be!

Don't tell me about the Americans who have left their homeland--maybe 
moved to Europe ;-) --and said, "Man, am I glad to be rid of my 
motherland and glad to be here."  You will always find the anecdote 
here and there.  And sure for some Americans it will be a step up 
from whatever hell they thought they were living in the States.  But 
don't expect in the next 10 generations to see Americans in a mass 
migration to get away from all urban violence ("because of our stupid 
gun freedom laws") to move to the relative police states that exist 
everywhere outside of America (with the possible exception of 
Canada--I love those Canadians).  You European snobs should really 
get a grip yourselves!