From: Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 03:20:47 +0800
To: Cynthia Brown <alexlh@yourchoice.nl>
Subject: Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or crypto"
In-Reply-To: <Mutt.19971001191622.alexlh@sarah.yc>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971004113450.00689718@popd.netcruiser>
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At 07:16 PM 10/1/97 +0100, Alex Le Heux wrote:
>You people just don't get it do you? A gun has one purpose: To kill. Just
like
>any other tool, a gun, if it is available _will_ be used at some point.
>
>So making sure there are lots of guns around only serves to make a lot of
>people very dead. This is a Bad Thing.
>
>Gun control laws are not the issue. It's a matter of mentality. In Europe,
>where we have rather strict guncontrol laws, and have had them for a long
>time a decent human being will not even think of shooting someone else. In
the
>US, where guns are tradition and part of the American way, many people would
>not think twice before shooting someone. The result of this is that the
>number of people getting killed by guns is enourmous, be they criminals,
>little kids, old grannies, or presidents.

You are right to the extent that the US has a more violent culture than the
UK and many other European countries, and has a higher murder rate.
However, your argument that the presence of guns == corpses is demonstrably
false.  Private ownership of firearms has a significant deterrent effect on
violent crime.  This may not be obvious when comparing the US to the UK,
but when comparing the statistics for areas within a country, region, or
city, it becomes indisputable.

Before Kennesaw, Georgia passed its famous (or infamous) ordinance
requiring each household in the city to own a gun and allowing concealed
carry of firearms, it had an average of 25-27 violent crimes (murder, armed
robbery, etc) per year.  After the ordinance was passed, there was one
violent crime the first year, and three the next.  The gun control shills
in the press reported this as a tripling in the violent crime rate.  Since
the state of Florida passed a "shall issue" concealed carry law (if you
apply, pay the fee, pass the safety course, and are not a felon or mentally
incompetent, the state shall issue you a concealed carry permit) it has
experienced significant reductions (10-20%) in the rates of murder, rape,
armed robbery, and other violent crimes.  Even in England and Scotland,
this inverse relationship between private gun ownership and violent crime
can be demonstrated, according to Colin Greenwood, retired chief of the
West Yorkshire Constabulary and criminology researcher since the sixties.

The explanation for this phenomenon is simple.  Most people are not
mentally unbalanced, or violent criminals, and therefore are capable of
safe and responsible gun ownership.  I had a gun when my wife told me that
she was having an affair with one of her co-workers.  By your theory, my
wife should be dead.  However, she remains in good health, we communicate
frequently, and are currently working on a reconciliation.  Why?  Because I
(and most other people) have sufficient moral fortitude to reject the idea
of committing murder for foolish reasons.  I am not a lunatic, therefore I
do not behave like one.

When the general population is armed, especially if they are armed during
their daily activities, the life of muggers, rapists, and murderers becomes
extremely dangerous.  People who insist on staying in these professions are
quickly removed from the gene pool by natural selection, and the smarter
ones gravitate to less dangerous professions, thereby reducing the crime
rate in two separate ways.  Even if only 10% of the population is carrying,
the 1% or less that is still outgunned by a factor of 10 or more, and only
fools play those odds.

The US has a higher rate of murder by strangulation than does the UK.
Would you argue that Americans posess more hands than their British
counterparts?

At 04:20 PM 10/1/97 -0400, Cynthia Brown wrote:
>IMNSHO the best way to fight crime is not with bigger guns than the "bad
>guys", but with better social programs such as universal health care, and
>improved day care so single parents can show their kids what a productive
>lifestyle looks like.  This takes longer than blowing the brains out of some
>teenager that feels his only path to a better life is through crime, and it
>doesn't give the same adrenalin rush.  However, it works at the source of
>crime, and not the consequences. 

We already have more social programs than we can afford--they are a large
part of the problem.  Why would a 19 year old work for minimum wage at an
entry-level job when he can get on walfare and get better benefits than he
would from the job, and thereby have the time to make $1000 per night
selling crack.

Jonathan Wienke

What part of "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
infringed" is too hard to understand? (From 2nd Amendment, U.S. Constitution)

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DSS/D-H Key Fingerprint: 3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC
Public keys available at pgpkeys.mit.edu. PGP encrypted e-mail preferred.

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