From: aileen holovacs <holovacsOMIT@idt.net>
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 18:39:40 +0800
To: Jodi Hoffman <jlhoffm@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Why Jodi Hoffman must be called a 'Dumb Cunt' and told to 'Go Fuck Yourself' at all costs, by TruthMonger
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971103132429.23538B-100000@vorlon.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <34607414.73E4@idt.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Jodi Hoffman wrote:
> 
> TruthMonger wrote:
> <snipped, because it's basically a lot of crap>
> 
> Monger:
> 
> Feel better?  I certainly hope so.
> By the way...for whatever it's worth:
> #1...I'm Jewish, not a Nazi-loving Christian bitch.
> #2...You have no idea who or what I am.
> #3...You hate that I'm right.  I love that.
> 
>
> #1...I'm Jewish, not a Nazi-loving Christian bitch.	I have to assume you were not born Jewish, nor converted to 
Judaism. I have yet to meet a Jew w/ such a fundamentalist Christian view 
of the world. If you were indeed born Jewish, I will apologize ahead of 
time and say only that, your education in yiddishkeit(Jewish life) and 
halakhah(Jewish law) must either have been nonexistant, or Lubavich. I 
suspect you consider yourself jewish because you are a jew for jesus. A 
Christian who has decided to adopt jewish tradition and therefore calls 
themself jewish. I bring these points to your attention:

> "DON'T SACRIFICE MY CHILD
>ON THE ALTAR OF THE FIRST AMENDMENT." Jews have never been advocates of censorship in any form. A Jews were not 
allowed to act, speak, or pray in WWII Germany, they were sent to death 
instead. Jews are not allowed to worship or read the holy books in 
communist countries. The greatest Jewish leaders through out history, 
read and argued dissenting viewpoints, they did not censor them.Even 
today, Jews take responsibility for their own children, they do not ask 
others to do it for them. The more orthodox place their children in 
private schools at their own expense, and teach their children to stay 
away from non-jews, they don't expect everyone else to bend to their 
views. 

I strongly doubt any Jew would choose use a quote from hitler. 

> Christians, clergy, and even Christ Himself
>are held up as objects of scorn Why do you use these terms? Why not Rabbis, teachers, and even the Ten 
Commandments? And the term Christ himself????As far as Jews are 
concerned, Jesus was nothing more than a minor prophet. It is upsetting 
that other religion's icons are held in scorn, but this is because we 
respect other people's belief.

>Homosexuality, abortion, violence, and contempt for all parental and
>governmental authority is the prevailing order of the day. 	Yes homosexuality is forbbidden, however, abortion and 
contraception is NOT! Even for the very orthodox, abortion is ALWAYS 
allowed to save a woman's life and in ANY case rape or incest. Among 
non-orthodox Jews, it is allowed if necessary for the sake of the family, 
or for the mental health of the woman. Even among the most orthodox, 
contraception is allowed after the birth of at least 1 male and 1 female 
child, and the sexual act is considered a mandatory act of mutual 
pelasure!
	I think you would find most Jews believe that contempt for 
parents, and lack of respect for adults is a direct result of upbringing, 
not the media or the internet.Jews teach respect by example, including 
respecting their own children. That, plus a healthy dose of jewish guilt. 
Jewish parents hold their children in such high regard, that there is no 
worse feeling than dissapointing your parents.
	While I don't think Jews as a whole hold the government in 
contepmt, they are among the first to say 'question authority'.Look at 
what has happened to us when we don't!(and sometimes even when we do)

>particularly powerful form of media is represented by the so-called
>"arts community."   Some latter-day "artists" actually make a
>pretty good living by mocking traditional values and Christianity.
>Consider Andres Sorrano's "Piss Christ" (a photograph of a crucifix
>submerged in urine) or Robert Mapplethorp's photos, which include one
>showing a bullwhip protruding out of his rear end.	Many Jews are great patrons of the arts. Art is a cultural 
legacy. If it's trash, don't by it or look at it; don't sponsor a museum 
that exhibits that trash, but censor? Never! Even pornography is 
allowable, it is up to the parents to educate the children on these 
matters.

> But they say not
>a word when it is pointed out that the Bible and all mention of morality
>in textbooks have been ruthlessly hounded from the schools.	It's called the Tanakh(Old Testament) not the bible. Jews have 
always insisted that their children get a Jewish education as well as an 
ecumenical one. from kindergarten on, Jewish children usually spend hours 
each week in hebrew school learning jewish history, law and culture. You 
cannot be b'nai Mitzvoh unles you go through all this. Even someone who 
converts to Judaism, must study until the Rabbi feels the have learned 
enough, before they can b'nai Mitzvah.

>Any individual weakness is treated as a problem of society, not of the
>person, and this relieves everyone of the responsibility of improving
>themselves.	Jews take responsibility not just for themselves but for the 
welfare of society, without any other agenda. The Mitzvah(good deed) is 
one of the top 5 most importanat things about being a jew. It means 
giving simply for the sake of others. Children are shown, very early, how 
good it feels to do a mitzvah, and all jews are encouraged to do a 
mitzvah a day. They don't blame  problems on society(as you seem to), nor 
do they expect the government to fix the problem(as you seem to). The 
best way to solve these problems is to offer help freely to resolve the 
problem, Not find a way to place blame(as you seem to). Is pornography 
really the problem, or is it that our youth are out of control and lack 
leadership and role models? Banning dirty words will not keep children 
from learning them. Teaching children how people use them and why they 
are innapropriate will. Teaching "bible" at school will not instill 
morality, teaching by example will. 
 
>#2...You have no idea who or what I am.	We have learned enough about you, through your messages here and 
you web site, to draw rather strong conclusions.

> #3...You hate that I'm right.  I love that. 	I intensely dislike your views, I don't hate anyone. I feel sorry 
for you, that your lack of education has left you vulnerable to the 
pseudo-science that you quote. It is obvious that you have never had a 
course in statistics, politics and government, sociology, science, ot 
research methods, to name a few. Jewish culture AND religion take great 
pride in holding education as one of the primary foundations of being a 
Jew!

Jew prize knowledge and education. Ideas are things to be nurtured and 
grown, books are things to be cherished and absorbed.The idea of 
censorship is an anathema to the entire culture.

If you were Jewish you would know at least some of this. It makes you and 
your arguments even less credible when you portray yourself as something 
you're not. Let's at least have a little honesty here even if we 
completely disagree on the censorship issue. Khlallah: gey en dregk


Men roybt undz dos lebn un recht             
                                          
Derfar vayl mir emes farlangen

Frayhayt, far bafrayt

They steal our lives and our rights,
because of our true desire,
freedom, freedom for everyone    

(from"tortured to death in captivity")
G.A.Machtet, poet
dedicated to student revolutionaries
-- 
Channah beyt Yehudit 
holovacs@idt.net