From: tcmay@netcom.com (Timothy C. May)
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 94 12:06:03 PST
To: eric@remailer.net (Eric Hughes)
Subject: Re: We are ALL guests (except Eric)
In-Reply-To: <199412011917.LAA13408@largo.remailer.net>
Message-ID: <199412012005.MAA29251@netcom4.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


Eric Hughes wrote:
> 
>    From: tcmay@netcom.com (Timothy C. May)
> 
>    I haven't said I plan to leave the list. I've said that if my posts
>    are blocked/bounced/rejected, I would likely choose not to remain.
> 
> Let me ask something more proximate.
> 
> Tim, if the server puts a header on mail that identifies it as unsigned,
> how will you feel about seeing your mail marked as such?  What might
> you do about such a situation?

I won't do anything. I might not even notice it. I've never felt that
this was important, though I also think it's pretty much useless (as
it's so obvious who's at least making the appearance of signing).

Delays of hours or more would affect my participation on the list.
Bounces of course would. Those have been my concerns.

On the rest of Eric's message, I'm in agreement with his assesment.
I'll elide liberally and only comment on a few points:

> Let the world know that there would be no cypherpunks without both Tim
> May and me.  Tim and I met at a party at Hugh Daniel's place; we were
...

All of this is as I remember it.

...
> the mailing list, and with this was a symmetry breaking.  As many of
> you know, I spent hours and hours and hours doing mailing list
> maintenance (adding and deleting by hand) and dealing with all of the
> problems.  I don't spend so much time on that anymore because of
> majordomo, but I still do deal with the bounces and the complaints and
> the exceptional requests.

Agreed. It was a symmetry breaking and Eric is justly rembembered as
being the driving force behind the mailing list. My issue is with the
views that are long the lines of "It's Eric's list, and if he says we
can only write about Croatian youth hostels, well, hey, it's _his_ list!"

"The map is not the territory," as a famous reverse Polish logician
said, and "the list is not the group." Nor is the Cause, the Movement,
etc.

The mailing list is the preferred forum in cyberspace for discussing
things amongst ourselves. 

> Now we must shift subjects.  What good is assigning credit if no use
> can be made of it?  Many substitutes are available for obtaining a
> good feeling.  Social position allows one to influence the world.  One
> of the most valuable abilities in the world is the ability to get
> people to listen to you.  This is not new, merely highlighted by the
> collapse-generating properties of computer networks.  Tim and I and
> many others have spent much time devoted to writing clearly enough
> that we will be listened to preferentially, both for clarity itself
> and for the anticipation of clarity.

Well said.

> "Actions speak louder than words" is true for local politics as well
> as global.  Both Tim and I yammer a lot, but I do the list work.  The
> assymetry is not incidental.  In discussing potential server actions,
> I do not feel constrained come to agreement with any single voice,
> including Tim.  I have a lot of respect for Tim and with respect to
> cypherpunks generally I try not to put myself above him, but with
> respect to the technical underpinnings of the list I feel no such
> constraint.  This difference is a long consequence of actions chosen
> by both parties.

I've never proposed a majority vote, or even an "advisory vote" of
some body. I've just said, in various forms, that compulsory signing
(or compulsory-anything), with delays or bounces, will have certain
negative effects, on me, on others, and perhaps on the list as a
whole. I've made no "propertarian" or "labor-mingling" arguments,
contrary to the views of some, just these opinions of wisdom.

> Now, Tim, I don't know exactly that you feel slighted in this debate
> with respect to origins and their values, but I suspect that you do.
> If so, I regret that, but ask you to, well, deal with it.  Symmetry is
> broken, cypherpunks is no longer new, and we who appeared
> interchangeable to the world two years ago now seem different.

I don't feel slighted, not that that would matter.

It just sticks in my craw that some folks here are apparently so eager
to adopt a position of blind obedience, of alpha male subservience.
I'd feel just about as strange (I hope) if people were saying "Look,
Tim's the boss. He's the Big Kahuna. If you don't like his policies on
his list, leave."

Clearer?

--Tim May


-- 
..........................................................................
Timothy C. May         | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,  
tcmay@netcom.com       | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
408-688-5409           | knowledge, reputations, information markets, 
W.A.S.T.E.: Aptos, CA  | black markets, collapse of governments.
Higher Power: 2^859433 | Public Key: PGP and MailSafe available.
Cypherpunks list: majordomo@toad.com with body message of only: 
subscribe cypherpunks. FAQ available at ftp.netcom.com in pub/tcmay