From: mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos)
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 95 18:12:43 PST
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Re: Files and mail
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9501061945.A12905-0100000@mindvox>
Message-ID: <199501070212.SAA19162@netcom3.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain


"I'm Wozz" <wozzeck@phantom.com> writes:

[miscellaneous Netcom-honking elided]

 > It just so happens the AUP of winternet allows for this
 > situation.

Right.  And a small service provider can make any "terms of
service agreement" his or her little heart desires.  Just like
the owner of a two line BBS.  With big service providers, such
things tend to be done in a somewhat more business-like fashion.

 > its a bit far fetched to call HIS reaction a tantrum.... If
 > anyone's screaming for mommy its whats-her-name....

Well, if I posted a message to 10 newsgroups and some bozo posted
a message to a.c-e.n-a falsely implying that it was the beginning
of some sort of massive spam, I would certainly not be pleased.
If Netcom, after receiving some small amount of flamage on the
subject, summarily removed access to my account and made
themselves unavailable for several days when I tried to contact
them to discuss the matter, and then tossed me off with a
flippant "so sue me" when I protested, I would be even less
pleased.  Fortunately, I can't imagine Netcom even caring about a
10 newsgroup cross-post.

 > big is better i guess....

In the case of Internet Service Providers, big is definitely
better.  There are simply economies of scale which are not
realized with smaller operations.  Netcom has had some problems,
but almost all of them were growth related.  None of them were
intrinsic to the systems and network itself.

 > Winternet is HARDLY a 'bbs'.  Its a regional internet
 > service....much as netcom was before they flooded every
 > city with dialups.

Read again, this time for comprehension.  I did not say Winternet
was a BBS.  Merely that smaller ISPs have many of the undesirable
characteristics found in BBS systems.

 > Any professional knows better than to read private
 > mail...and if this is so...then they aren't worthy of having
 > a site to run

For legal purposes, most BBS systems declare that for the
purposes of the ECPA, there is no such thing as private mail on
their system.  The Sysop is then free to read anything he wishes
to.  This policy is clearly stated in the user agreements of
almost all BBS systems offering access to the public.

 > as for PGP, this is an individual thing....I'm sure mike
 > has no such objections...i know here at MindVox we
 > don't...in fact, we installed it for the users

Many BBS Sysops forbid PGP and kick users off their systems who
use it.  They cite fears of encrypted illegal porn and credit
card numbers passing through their systems, and potential legal
liability.

 > Netcom is an abomination.....it is the only one of its kind
 > (not counting delphi etc, since they were conceived under
 > differnent systems)

Netcom is the fastest growing and leading Internet Service
Provider.  Their ability to attract new customers is limited only
by the rate at which they are able to increase capacity.  Their
respect for freedom of expression is absolute and they do not
meddle in their customers' affairs.  Their prices are reasonable
and their user agreement is fair.  Works for me. :)

 > They suck network services off others (irc as one example)
 > and don't take responsibilty for the HUGE number of idiots
 > on their service who maliciously hack anything they can
 > reach....its totally without personality...AND....its slower
 > than molasses...the management is out of touch with the
 > users and they are so overloaded with trouble reports, they
 > don't know what to do with them.

Perhaps an exaggerated description of Netcom a few months ago,
but certainly not the current state of affairs.  I always get a
line when I dial in, response time is reasonable, disk is
abundant, and almost all software is available.  Speed of network
connections to other sites is quite acceptable.

 > This has got to be one of the largest loads of crap I've
 > seen tossed on this list in the year and a half i've lurked
 > on it.

Everyone is certainly entitled to an opinion, which, in the words
of Robert Blake, is one of the two things all humans have. :)

 > oh...btw...i don't have ANY connection to winternet, other
 > than knowing MANY satisfied customers, and having heard
 > alot about them, as a sysadmin for a site in much the same
 > situation.

The number of satisfied customers is not the measure of a site,
any more than the number of people still alive is the measure of
a disease.

Netcom works with the reliability of the phone company.  It is
always there, almost always up, and is redundant enough that when
something breaks, it is still usable.  I pay my $19.50 a month
and I get unlimited everything.  I'm happy.

-- 
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $