From: "Perry E. Metzger" <perry@piermont.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 07:02:49 -0700 (PDT)
To: tcmay@got.net (Timothy C. May)
Subject: Cypherpunks: Cesspit? (was Re: Mindshare and Java)
In-Reply-To: <ada43daa150210045c4d@[205.199.118.202]>
Message-ID: <199604251402.KAA27368@jekyll.piermont.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



Timothy C. May writes:
> Well, I was not invited to join the elite and secret coderpunks
> list,

It is neither elite nor secret. It is fairly high signal to noise. I
think only about one in every fifty or so cypherpunks messages has any
content at all worth mentioning.

> but I still have some thoughts on coding and, especially, on the
> opportunities offered by Java. Sorry if this interferes with
> discussions of Rabbi Heir and Morris Dees.

You have no right to grumble about the situation here. It is exactly
what you wanted. Here you were, a person of some personal gravitas and
moral authority, and you put your stamp on the "post whatever you
like; don't let the grumbling censors stop you". Well, as you sow, so
shall you reap. Its your fault, more than anyone else's.

> [It is my firm opinion that the creation of a separate mailing list to
> discuss only coding or software issues is a mistake.

Unfortunately, most of the smart coders had been driven out of this
cesspit by the noise levels, so it was the only choice left.

> Basically, it is easier to filter-reduce a large group, such as with
> "[CODE]" prefixes or by reputations,

Actually, it isn't easier. I've tried filtering cypherpunks and its
damn hard. Doing it right would require much more AI than we have
access to.

> And there is another important point, that the
> Cypherpunks/Coderpunks split is producing the expected result: the
> Cypherpunks are rapidly losing any remaining anchors to
> technical/programming issues and are thus becoming almost wholly
> politics-driven. While I am of course highly motivated by political
> issues, they must be grounded in technical issues

As I recall, Mr. May, you were arguing against my continued attempts
to keep some semblance of technical discussion continuing on
Cypherpunks. The occassional attempt by me to turn things in a
technical direction was met by posts from you to the effect of "this
isn't coderpunks, get that technical stuff out of here". In jest or
no, I got sick of dealing with it.

I didn't want to see the split, but at least now there is a place I
can have discussions with smart crypto software coders. None of them
could tolerate Cypherpunks any longer. If Cypherpunks has become a
cesspit, well, its YOUR cesspit, Tim. Its the list you always strove
to create, but it appears that you now don't like the smell of your
own wallow. Well, sorry. Deal with it.

> I can't say what's happening on the coderpunks list, but my suspicion is
> that many of the coderpunks-only readers are analogously disconnected from
> ideological/political issues and think, perhaps, that the main purpose of
> the list (and of Cypherpunks) is to discuss compiler optimizations for PGP
> source code.

No, most of them are highly political. They just don't see any reason
to blather on about the same stuff over and over and over and over
when there is work to be done. Those that never do work may not
understand this principle, of course.

Perry