From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 11:49:47 -0700 (PDT)
To: tcmay@got.net (Timothy C. May)
Subject: Re: Mindshare and Java
In-Reply-To: <ada43daa150210045c4d@[205.199.118.202]>
Message-ID: <199604251849.LAA16561@netcom11.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain




TCM:
>
>Well, I was not invited to join the elite and secret coderpunks list, but I
>still have some thoughts on coding and, especially, on the opportunities
>offered by Java. Sorry if this interferes with discussions of Rabbi Heir
>and Morris Dees.

hey, that's horrible. well, consider this an invitation. "we" would
love to see you post there. but you've written disparagely about
people that like to code in the past here, so "we're" not sure how
much you will like the list.

>[It is my firm opinion that the creation of a separate mailing list to
>discuss only coding or software issues is a mistake. For several reasons,
>which I can discuss at lenght in a separate message. Basically, it is
>easier to filter-reduce a large group, such as with "[CODE]" prefixes or by
>reputations, than it is to filter-expand a moribund group! :-}

that's pretty amusing. I thought I saw a long msg from you about how these
prefixes were mostly a waste of time based on your experience on the
Extroprian list.

 I've seen
>many sub-critical mass list become moribund. And there is another important
>point, that the Cypherpunks/Coderpunks split is producing the expected
>result: the Cypherpunks are rapidly losing any remaining anchors to
>technical/programming issues and are thus becoming almost wholly
>politics-driven.

whoa, you don't know that. a little bit of a leap of faith there. the
cpunk list has always been awash in froth almost from its beginning.
people are always whining about its loss of S/N but it has always been
an awful lot of flotsam and jetsam.

 While I am of course highly motivated by political issues,
>they must be grounded in technical issues (else we are just another
>anti-CDA, anti-censorship, anarcho-capitalist, libertarian ranting group).

hee, hee. the pendulum swings back. first message I have seen in which
you get out of the defensive, "anti-CDA, anti-censorship, anarcho-capitalist,
libertarian rants are right on target here on the cpunk list and don't
let boneheads like PM argue with you about it."

>I can't say what's happening on the coderpunks list, but my suspicion is
>that many of the coderpunks-only readers are analogously disconnected from
>ideological/political issues and think, perhaps, that the main purpose of
>the list (and of Cypherpunks) is to discuss compiler optimizations for PGP
>source code.

suspicion is a funny thing. people who are paranoid can be manipulated
to channel their fears into useful effects. in a place where a lot
of people are paranoid, you can even get a sort of chain reaction of
paranoia. (as in the recent message, "YAAAAH!! we're being DETWEILED!!!")

 It is sad to see the Cypherpunks lose its grounding. Maybe in
>a few months, the coderpunks will simply declare victory, dissolve the
>Cypherpunks list, and rename themselves, a la coderpunks = cypherpunks++.)

cypherpunks, a barely "grounded" thing to begin with, "lose its
grounding"? what about you, the premiere advocate of free choice and
letting a thousand mailing lists bloom? oh, when one becomes SUCCESSFUL,
then its a problem. I see. I thought there was "no such thing as the 
cypherpunks"? there is no "group" to begin with? I never thought I would see 
you cheerleeding for "cypherpunk unity."

>But I come not to bury Cypherpunks, I come to praise Java.

the rest of your post was not interesting to me so I'll refrain from
commenting. <g>