From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 08:28:17 +0800
To: petro@playboy.com (Petro)
Subject: Re: y2k/gary north delusions
In-Reply-To: <v04011703b28df9c5afbe@[206.189.103.230]>
Message-ID: <199812042341.RAA18742@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Petro wrote:
> At 3:48 PM -0500 12/4/98, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> >> 	Not just crazy, flat out _wrong_ in at least one case:
> >> >     Let's start with the basics: water.  An urban adult
> >> >uses 75 to 100 gallons of water a day.  This doesn't count
> >> 	Like hell. Your average adult drinks at MOST 1 gallon a day,
> >> including coffees sodas etc. It is _real_ difficult to drink over 1 gallon,
> >> and you can seriously fuck your system up (mineral balances) if you drink
> >> too much.
> >> 	I drink a LOT of (non-alcohol) fluid (as opposed to drinking
> >> solids) a day, and I usually top out at 3 quarts, unless I am doing a long
> >> distance ride.
> >> 	Let's round it up and call it one gallon for drinking.
> >> 	Showers: If you need more than 10-15 gallons, you are taking too long.
> >Come on people. We are talking SURVIVAL here. Can you ski your showers
> >if you do not have enough water?
> 
> 	In the first block he was talking about _normal_ _day_to_day_ water
> usage. I was attacking that point.
> 
> >The true answer is, if shit hits the fan and there is no water in the
> >faucet, almost all activity except drinking and washing hands and dishes
> >can be curtailed.
> 
> 	Not for long periods of time. General cleanlyness IS VERY important
> in survival situations. Clean skin and clothes help prevent infections from
> common wounds (like barking your shin against something, or a scratch from
> a tree branch &etc.)

Well... The answer is that there is much less washing needed for
survival than it is needed for day to day civilized American life.

For instance, I change my shirts every day. If shit hits the fan,
you can wear a shirt for two weeks. Similar story is with other
clothes.

> >Even flushing toilets is not necessary as anyone can shit outside.
> 
> 	Not in a crowded enviroment, that being a mid-sized town to a large
> city.

Come one, you can set up big latrines outside houses.

> >I am speaking out of personal experiences, living with water outages
> >while we were in the Russian countryside. It was no big deal, period.
> 
> 	Countryside.
> 
> >> 	Cooking: another gallon.
> >It is included.
> 
> 	Included in what? The pasta? The rice? The beans?

Well, yeah, of course. With pasta, you can make soup and eat the
water, too.

> 	I am not talking about a camping trip here, I am talking about
> living off stored food for one to three months (anything longer (IMO) takes
> VERY VERY different preperations.

Well, yes, but still you need no more than 3 gallons of water,
which was my main contention.

> >Much less.
> >> 	Total: 40-75 (rounded up).
> >Total: 2-3.
> 
> 	In a max survival do-or-die situation, yes. For long term health,
> no. and besides, that was a number assuming "normal" usage.

It is entorely possible to live a decent life off of 3 gallons of
water per day. I am speaking out of my experience.
 
> >> 	Ok, so let's cut that back to what we _need_. First off, we don't
> >> dump our dish water down the drain, it gets "recycled" to flush the
> >> toilets.
> >get them to shit outside.
> 
> 	Why, so bacteria can fester, and things like dystensia (spelled

dysenteria

> wrong, bacteria that causes "the shits" and other stomach problems) and
> other diseases run rampant?

There is no problem with a properly set up outside toilet. 

There is a problem with eating unwashed food AND dirty hands.

To set up a toilet, dig a hole about 3-4 feet deep, fortify it
somewhat so that it would not cave in (for most soils fortification is
unnecessary). Then, build something above the hole so that people would
not be embarrassed to go there.

That's IT. Our country house in Russia used this system, it is reasonably
safe, etc. The whole neighborhood of houses used this system, as did
millions of other Russians. It _is_ safe. (Our apartment in Moscow had
a regular flush toilet bathroom).

> >I am not suggesting that Y2K is going to be a cakewalk. Quite possibly
> >not. But Gary North is not worth listening to because he is biased and
> >has a conflict of interests.
> 
> 	I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that the biggest problem with
> Y2K is not going to be technical, but the Cultists & Gun Nuts (as a
> distinct group from survivalists who simply wish to get on with their
> lives) realize that it isn't the Apocolypse, and then seek to make it so.

A point I also made recently.

> >> 	Live off those who planned ahead, stocked up spent thousands of
> >> dollars on Food, Generators, guns & etc. but didn't spend 10 minutes making
> >> sure their bodies were prepared & died of heart attacks trying to pull
> >> start their generators to keep their computers running.
> >> 	(I'm mostly joking about the above)
> >I think that you had a good point... A long time ago I posted a "Skills
> 
> 	Like I said, mostly.
> 
> >vs. guns" article to misc.survivalism. its point was, that in the long
> >run having good skills and health was more important than stocking up.
> 
> 	Bet they tried to run you out of there, they don't want to hear
> that kinda stuff, they want to hear how to get the most out of their 4X4,
> argue over whether the AK is better than the M-16 (hint, if you have to
> shoot more than a clip, you're fucked) for a "survival" situation.

No, they were pretty nice. Not all of them agreed, but they had a
sensible discussion.

> >> >     Let me give a simple example.  How will you wash
> >> >clothes for everyone?  Let's assume that you have water.
> >> >(Dreamer!)  You can buy a 40-lb. tub of Wind Fresh laundry
> >> >detergent from Sam's Club for $10.  It will do 160 loads.
> >>
> >> 	Ummm. Gary, how did people wash their clothes before they could buy
> >> soap at the store?
> >>
> >> 	Why don't you print a recipe for Lye Soap?
> >You can make semi-good "soap" from animal fat and ash.
> 
> 	That is what "lye" soap is (basically)

Ahh, thanks.

	- Igor.