From: ichudov@Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov @ home)
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 05:28:26 +0800
To: mah248@nyu.edu (Michael Hohensee)
Subject: No food, no shit (Re: y2k/gary north delusionsn)
In-Reply-To: <366A2610.7F850BA3@nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <199812062043.OAA12057@manifold.algebra.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text



Michael Hohensee wrote:
> 
> 
> Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
> > 
> > Michael Hohensee wrote:
> > > Latrines aren't sufficient to the task.  In a city like NYC, latrines
> > > might solve the problem for perhaps a week (assuming that we tear up all
> > > the roads and sidewalks --something which we cannot do in time, even if
> > > we wanted to), but then they'll be full, and there won't be any more
> > > places the latrines can be rotated to.
> > 
> > Why, shit is actually pretty compact. usually with latrines, the liquid
> > filtrates out, and the compressed shit does not take too much space.
> > 
> > If you dig a deep enough hole (2-3 yards) it should last for a long,
> > long time. I estimate that a human being produces about 1/2 to 1lb
> > of hard waste per day, some are more full of it, some less. Let's settle
> > on one lb per day.
> > 
> > Let's see, a hole that is 5 yards wide, 3 yards deep, and, say, 2 yards
> > wide, is about 30 cubic yards. It could take about 40 tons of hard
> > compressed waste, that is, 80 thousand man-days of shitting can be
> > compressed in it.
> > 
> > You definitely need some heavy machinery to dig this kind of hole
> > (and then you have to build smoe kind of frame over it to prevent people
> > from falling into it if it collapses), but it is not hard and can even
> > be done in a catastrophic scenario.
> > 
> > That's a lot!!! Let's see,a high rise building with 50 floors and 10
> > apartments in each floor, that's about 1200 people. The latrine would
> > last them what, about sixty days! And then they can dig another one.
> 
> This assumes that we can compress it this much, which assumes that we
> have sufficient machinery.  It further assumes that we will be able to
> ignore the "wet" component of human waste.  You can't just pour it down
> the drains.

No, the wet component filtrates out of the hole, into the soil.

Compression happens automaitcally.

> Next, we should realize that these latrines are themselves not going to
> be particularly sanitary, and it would be most unwise to use them for
> any extended period of time.  Hell, even *with* flush toilets, I've seen
> people squatting down in subway stations to take a leak not more than 5
> feet from the restroom.

Yeah, they are not too sanitary, but it is livable.

I refer you to the book "Where there is no doctor" that talks
about it. (a great book, all in all)

> Further, we should realize that for the above reason, people are not
> going to be particularly motivated to use these latrines.  After all,
> nobody wants to hold it for a long time while they wait in line to take
> a leak, just for the privilege of relieving themselves in disease
> central.  You're going to see shit in the street in any case.

I suspect that this will not be happening a lot in the cleaner
parts of the city.

> Finally, even if we dig these holes, (and they're *going* to be bigger
> than what you describe, as they must contain liquid, as well as solid

liquid disspiates.

> waste), we're going to end up messing up the roads something fierce. 
> Big cities *need* roads to transport life-critical items.  If we dig
> them up, we're in even worse trouble.
> 
> > > Then we're back to doing it in the open.  Less concentrated cities might
> > > last a while longer, but not much longer.  There's no getting around it,
> > > we *need* working sewer systems to have modern cities.  Otherwise, the
> > > cities die.
> > 
> > Not in the short run. They could survive for a while.
> > 
> >         - Igor.
> 
> In the *very* short run.  Like, say, a few weeks.  That is if the food
> doesn't stop coming in first --then things finish up a bit sooner.

Well, if you have no food, you make no shit.

	- Igor.