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Arise, you have nothing to lose but your barbed wire fences!

1997-12-05 - Re: Censorial leftists (Was: Interesting article)

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From: berezina@qed.net (Paul Spirito)
To: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Message Hash: 5924f9811af082b983401f3bde994278bf59044c1b2b9e9071157d4707a9b7fd
Message ID: <348d673c.36720307@mail.qed.net>
Reply To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971204135130.369D-100000@is-chief>
UTC Datetime: 1997-12-05 22:34:18 UTC
Raw Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 06:34:18 +0800

Raw message

From: berezina@qed.net (Paul Spirito)
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 06:34:18 +0800
To: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
Subject: Re: Censorial leftists (Was: Interesting article)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971204135130.369D-100000@is-chief>
Message-ID: <348d673c.36720307@mail.qed.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Fri, 05 Dec 1997 15:27:45 -0500, Duncan Frissell wrote:

> And there is a difference between "political 
>rights" and liberty.  I care about the latter and not the former.  Plenty of 
>tyrannical democracies.  I judge governments by how much they leave me alone 
>not by their form.

Don't lecture me. I said "political freedom" by which I mean the liberty to
speak, assemble, &c. I thought that was clear from the contextual reference
to "civil liberties". 

By the way, do you want the government to leave others alone as well? To
murder you, for example? Libertarians want a government capable of, &
focused on, protecting their interests -- just like everyone else*. The
question is: what *is* in my interest: long-term, thought-through, really? 

>Certainly today's economic and technological freedom gives individuals vast 
>money and vast power.  This increases their ability to tell their governments 
>to go fuck themselves.  Whether they will choose to exercise this power, they 
>certainly have it.

Many of those vastly empowered individuals *are* the government. Recall that
I wrote in opposition to the rosy scenario whereby economic progress
inevitably leads to political liberty. Here are a couple of other scenarios:

1) The progress collapses in the face of massive corruption. See Malaysia.
I'd be curious to know if you think this is more or less likely in a fascist
state.

2) The government uses it's newfound technological & industrial capacity, &
taxbase, for nefarious purposes. See fascist Italy, Germany, Japan. Once
again, more or less likely in a fascist state?

I'm no opponent of economic or technological progress, that would be silly.
It engenders greater practical, not just theoretic, freedom (e.g. the
ability to speak globally), goodies are fun, & even basic liberty is much
more difficult to preserve when people are hungry. We can certainly agree on
that. I also oppose large portions of the U.S. government, its criminal &
regulatory structure. I'd like to see it move in the *direction* of
Libertopia. True, I wouldn't want to see it get there, but we can agree on
most short-term & mid-term issues.

But once again, articles like Declan's "hey, Singapore may be 'Disneyland
with the death penalty' but the trains sure run on time" piss me off. The
implied valuation miscalculates my interest, & Declan's also, in my opinion,
to the point of "brain rot," as Seth used to say**. Is a tax cut worth the
enormous increase in arbitrariness in an authoritarian state? 

Apparently, the Joos are responsible for the crisis in Malaysia. Or so the
Grand High Mystical Wizard who heads the country has suddenly decided. Wanna
live there?

As Libertarians point out, there's a huge difference between economic
pressure (e.g. to purchase Windows) & being shot in the head. Abstract it
out a bit -- it applies to comparisons between governments as well.

>No they criticize [corporate welfare] because they don't like to *pay* for it. 
>They believe in lower taxes and smaller governments.

Non-sequiter. You confuse net with gross. 

Paul

*An anarchist believes the most capable, focused government *is* herself.

**Yes, I support Declan's right to make up his own mind on such matters,
but:

1) I believe he may be wrong.
2) I'm not the apologist for authoritarianism.

http://www.nihidyll.com/gallery/Tornado.jpg

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