From: Jim Burnes <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 08:46:37 +0800
To: "J. Lasser" <jon@lasser.org>
Subject: Re: Censorial leftists (Was: Interesting article)
In-Reply-To: <19971204150228.29343@gwyn.tux.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.971204135130.369D-100000@is-chief>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain



On Thu, 4 Dec 1997, J. Lasser wrote:

> In the wise words of William H. Geiger III:
> 
> > As I stated in my previous post the Nolan chart is flawed. In it's
> > attempts to be "two-dimensional" it artificially separates interdependent
> > philosophies. Economic Freedom = Personal Freedom. You can not have one
> > without the other. The major failings of the socialist is their
> > unwillingness to accept this fact. A free society can not survive under a
> > socialist regime any more that a totalitarian society can survive under a
> > capitalist one.
> 
> I think the Nolan chart is flawed because the questions are all worded
> in a leading manner, personally.
> 

ok..whatever.  the argument was not that the nolan chart is the
ultimate basis for political discourse, but that its at least a
magnitude of order better than the one dimensional left-right
number line.

there is also a certain nice symmetry to it.  Left, right, authoritarian,
libertarian are mapped out quite nicely in that space..  the point is
that it *has* space.

if you dont like the nolan chart create your own multidimensional
chart.  anything is better than what the media uses now.

> And Singapore survives quite well being a totalitarian capitalist
> society. Sure, you can pick nits and claim that Singapore's not entirely
> capitalist, but it's more capitalist than this country and certainly
> less free, too.
> 

hmmm..  no one says that singapore doesn't work anyomore than
that they say that a team of horses under a whip doesn't work.
the difference is that in singapore the policeman is inside.

> The fact of the matter seems to me to be that most people are perfectly
> satisfied to be passive consumers. While they like to be free, that
> means free to make purchasing decisions.

<pedagogy>

there is a fundamental flaw your case.  economic freedom is really the
same as social freedom.  the major flaw in the nolan chart is that it can
only ask questions based on political sensibilities as a function of the
predominant (and flawed IMHO) paradigms of fascism and socialism.  but
then the function of the nolan chart is to find out where people are in
those paradigms and why they might want to be somewhere else
(libertarianism specifically).

In either case, the act of buying and selling things is the ultimate
expression of free association/assembly.  I voluntarily associate
with the guy who makes my pizza, builds my car, mows my law etc.
The control of that freedom is probably a direct violation of the
first amendment, but I have yet to write an actual proof of my
case yet.

It sure beats the hell out of barter.
It sure beats the hell out of theft to attain property.
Not that this doesn't go on.

Everything else flows from this.

I might mention, since this is the cypherpunk list, that crypto
is *exactly* what big brother is afraid of because we might realize
what *kind* of slaves we are and what kind of masters they are.
Incidentally it might actually free us from this prison some
day.  The first step to escaping from your jail cell is understanding
that you live in a jail cell and what kind of cell that is.  Most
new citizens units have a room reserved from birth.
(slave: birth to grave)

Freedom to make purchasing decisions is *the* major component of freedom
in any advanced society.   It is the medium by which we interact
with society at large.  Red Hat software doesn't know who the hell
I am and they probably can't afford to care that much.  What they
do know is that if they configure a really decent version of Linux
that I will give them $50.  It allows me to do my thing and it puts
food on their table.

Economic freedom is what makes it possible for society to evolve into
to something better.  Lack of it eventually dooms the inhabitants
to decide whether to become a hammer or an anvil -- a host or
a parasite.

If you don't think that the population is prevented from making
purchasing decisions then you better get the sleep out of your
eyes and take a good, hard look. 

</pedagogy>

 They also like to be safe, and
> if they have to lose civil liberties to be safe, then they're all for
> it. Just so long as they can buy what they want.

and thats a big "if".  you forget the one of the major assets
of any citizens life is the number of hours until their death.

it seems to be the opinion of the nation state that those hours
are at the disposal of the state.  when you "work" you are exchanging
the most valuable asset you own for ledger sheet credits.

how much does an hour of your life cost?  what do you sell it for?  how
much does it cost to buy it back?  those are the purchasing decisions that
determine true freedom.  big brother steals hours of your life
and no amount of "voting" will stop it.  


 That seems to me to
> describe the essence of the Singapore problem, and I'd bet it holds true
> for the U.S. (and many other places) as well.

so your saying that people don't mind being happy slaves.  i'm
not sure I would disagree.  sometimes its time for even the
kitchen slaves to leave the plantation.

> 
> And, regardless of whether the two are actually separate, the Nolan
> chart is intended to measure peoples' _beliefs_ and _feelings_ about
> economic and political freedom. And those, as this discussion proves,
> are clearly separate.
> 

not sure that was a QED.

jim